tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21122514.post3685831154604588760..comments2024-03-23T11:05:13.046+01:00Comments on Dimitri Gielis Blog (Oracle Application Express - APEX): Is APEX still worth looking at?Dimitri Gielishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16295721159626839167noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21122514.post-41440777122339511662010-12-01T08:50:23.252+01:002010-12-01T08:50:23.252+01:00Oracle developers or architects come up with this ...Oracle developers or architects come up with this brilliant idea...labatteriehttp://www.labatterie.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21122514.post-78328808845554211102009-03-27T20:00:00.000+01:002009-03-27T20:00:00.000+01:00Licensing IS why I've landed here.I'm looking for ...Licensing IS why I've landed here.<BR/><BR/>I'm looking for a way to to get off of the vendor lock-in that forms and oracle currently has us in. Was hoping apex and postgres would be a way forward (leaving aside the issue of oracle hi-costs provide oracle 'techs' with hi salaries)jnowlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05339849328831302081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21122514.post-88135919275733821952009-03-12T12:13:00.000+01:002009-03-12T12:13:00.000+01:00"You start writing procedures in PL/SQL to provide..."You start writing procedures in PL/SQL to provide a foundation for the Java all the while thinking, "this has all been done before, why am I writing this stuff from scratch"."<BR/><BR/><BR/>Greg - this is EXACTLY what ADF is doing - giving you all the "infrastructure" and "nice to haves" that any application will need - out of the box....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21122514.post-7636127755368933552009-03-11T22:27:00.000+01:002009-03-11T22:27:00.000+01:00I think Application Express will continue to be a ...I think Application Express will continue to be a very popular choice for DBAs and PL/SQL developers. I also think that once you get a taste you come back. It's easy to forget all the things you get from APEX until you go work with Java developers and you have to use text search to find your database dependencies. You begin to miss the ability to look at a user session "live" when answering a support call. You start writing procedures in PL/SQL to provide a foundation for the Java all the while thinking, "this has all been done before, why am I writing this stuff from scratch". <BR/><BR/>Sadly some CIOs don't get it and some are waiting for something more from Oracle - especially in the area of Oracle Applications integration. The Forms migration release will go a long way towards alleviating the fear that this product will go he way of other similarly positioned products but for some to really consider APEX they will need to convince CIOs. And Oracle is still doing too little to assist. <BR/><BR/>Consider too the lack of documentation. 3.2 improves this somewhat but do a quick search on Amazon to compare RAILS to APEX. I'm not saying it's right or wrong but it does influence adoption.<BR/><BR/>GregAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21122514.post-21553386373696538172009-03-11T16:43:00.000+01:002009-03-11T16:43:00.000+01:00I think you are unlikely to see freelancer jobs wi...I think you are unlikely to see freelancer jobs with APEX on the main job board. After all, the tool is so easy to use that you don't need to hire expensive external consultants ;-)<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, if you bid to build a specific solution and choose to use APEX, I believe you can be very successful with APEX: You can build such a lot of functionality in such a short time.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02362802463199056934noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21122514.post-9348606419801958602009-03-11T15:37:00.000+01:002009-03-11T15:37:00.000+01:00Interesting to see that the conversation changed f...Interesting to see that the conversation changed from "popularity" to "license costs".<BR/><BR><BR/>I have to admit that this subject crossed my mind when looking again at the features announced for version 4.0.<BR>How are they going to offer all this hot/cool/fancy features without asking money for it . . .?<BR><BR/>But as John mentioned: should we stop using Apex when Oracle charges us (or our customers)?Peter de Boerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17750262065531140736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21122514.post-45174640372772844712009-03-11T11:34:00.000+01:002009-03-11T11:34:00.000+01:00Matthias,Even if Oracle did choose to charge for A...Matthias,<BR/><BR/>Even if Oracle did choose to charge for APEX (or some part of it) in the future, is that any reason to not use it *today*?<BR/><BR/>I think you can apply the same argument to almost every free/non-cost tool out there. One day MySQL might cease development, one day Ruby might be much less active etc etc...<BR/><BR/>The point is, you can't second guess the future, sure you can predict trends etc, but ultimately none of us know 100% for sure (Oracle might decide to charge for APEX and then change their minds 3 months later etc).<BR/><BR/>Besides, even if they did charge for APEX, assuming it was a *reasonable* cost, it is still a heck of a productive development environment that would be worth paying for (in my opinion), so the fact that we have it for no-extra-cost today makes it even more of a gift.<BR/><BR/>John.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21122514.post-32550816732203306022009-03-11T11:15:00.000+01:002009-03-11T11:15:00.000+01:00Matthias,I don't work for Oracle, so obviously I c...Matthias,<BR/><BR/>I don't work for Oracle, so obviously I can't speak authoritatively on the licensing/cost issue.<BR/><BR/>However...there are two things to note -<BR/><BR/>1) As Dimitri said, APEX is a feature of the database, if you have the relevant license for the database then you can use APEX with no additional cost (obviously Oracle XE has no cost either, so there is a 'zero' cost there).<BR/><BR/>2) Oracle, as far as I'm aware, has no history of taking a product (like this) that it never charged additional licenses for and then making it an additionally licenced product.<BR/><BR/>I'm trying to be careful with my wording here, as 'free' is not really the same thing as 'no extra cost'.<BR/><BR/>In some respects you could argue the same thing for PL/SQL...it comes with the database, at no additional licence cost, but will Oracle ever charge you extra for it?.....I doubt it...but the same argument applies.<BR/><BR/>Also...to extend that argument a bit more...<BR/><BR/>If tomorrow Oracle decided to charge 'extra' for APEX, it would not impact any of your currently running applications, I highly doubt Oracle could/would charge retrospectively for all those current users of APEX.<BR/><BR/>So in short, could Oracle start billing for APEX...sure, of course...nobody knows the future.<BR/><BR/>Is it *likely* that Oracle *will* start charging for APEX in the foreseeable future? In my opinion almost certainly not based on what I've seen/know.<BR/><BR/>John.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21122514.post-88954207439725471352009-03-11T11:07:00.000+01:002009-03-11T11:07:00.000+01:00Yes, I know you need a license for the Oracle data...Yes, I know you need a license for the Oracle database (if you are using anything other than XE).<BR/>But will all features of Apex remain free ? Could it not be possible that Oracle starts selling extra-cost modules ? Like they will do with SQL Developer ?<BR/><BR/>MatthiasAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21122514.post-12423207103075747542009-03-11T10:58:00.000+01:002009-03-11T10:58:00.000+01:00Hi Matthias,APEX is not really free, you get it fo...Hi Matthias,<BR/><BR/>APEX is not really free, you get it for free when you have a license for the Oracle database. (Ofcourse you could run it on XE which is a free version of the Oracle database)<BR/><BR/>Nevertheless, from 11g onwards APEX is an option of the database, so you can just see it as a feature you get with it. So I don't see why they would make that payable.<BR/><BR/>On every conference and every chat I had with Oracle, there was never mentioned they would make it payable at one time.<BR/><BR/>DimitriDimitri Gielishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16295721159626839167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21122514.post-74274611361661481402009-03-11T10:53:00.000+01:002009-03-11T10:53:00.000+01:00APEX grows and improves year after year ... I star...APEX grows and improves year after year ... I started working with version 2.2 back in 2006 ;-)<BR/><BR/>The question remains: will it stay free ???<BR/><BR/>MatthiasAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21122514.post-45769115095252821352009-03-11T10:27:00.000+01:002009-03-11T10:27:00.000+01:00Hi Dimitri, nice to see a much more balanced debat...Hi Dimitri, nice to see a much more balanced debate rather than the "mine's the best" stuff that this topic often falls into ;o) May it always continue this way ;o)<BR/><BR/>All valid points - two additions I would make.<BR/><BR/>Firstly, I think you have to be VERY careful when you bring up the topic of cost - sure - paying for an EE app server might make your accountant have a sleepless night or two. But compare that to asking both him and your CTO to sign off on the development effort of taking a working app and re-developing it - well, you might find the cost of the risk far outweighs the cost of an EE app server. Or you may find you save millions on deployment costs by centrally hosting Forms on an app server instead of client/server - only you can decide - so its much more complex than just the cost of a license. (plus, won't your database license possibly be impacted by maybe requiring more processing power in your database if your apps run there???) - so, the cost point can be in danger of being over simplified.<BR/><BR/>The second point regarding ADF and JDev, as you know, Oracle has bet its mortgage on the Fusion tech stack (including ADF) for the up and coming Fusion applications. That pretty much means ANYONE using Oracle Apps or closely tied will be using this technology. I think we have been seeing the ripples but when this stuff lands, I think there will be a hell of a wave and its then your might really find how important it is to be part of that wave or not.<BR/><BR/>Having said that, I'm not suggesting its an either or choice - I still see a sweet spot for each app - but I just wanted to add those two points to "enrichen" your article ;o)<BR/><BR/>Of course, like David, I'm fair, but maybe not completely unbiased.<BR/><BR/>Regards<BR/>GrantAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21122514.post-29067648034820918362009-03-10T17:06:00.000+01:002009-03-10T17:06:00.000+01:00Dimitri,Well reasoned post.I'm not an unbiased bys...Dimitri,<BR/><BR/>Well reasoned post.<BR/><BR/>I'm not an unbiased bystander in this, but I certainly agree that APEX popularity is growing significantly. <BR/><BR/>For some proof points look at the number of APEX sessions at Oracle Openworld 2008 = 38, including the public voting in 7 out of 25 from the Oracle Mix. This year at Kaleidoscope 2009 in Monterey there are over 30 sessions and a dedicated APEX track.<BR/><BR/>I believe that even more organizations will start utilizing APEX 3.2 due to our Forms Conversion.<BR/><BR/>Cheers,<BR/>DavidAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06420119505200371727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21122514.post-57665075640459018042009-03-10T12:55:00.000+01:002009-03-10T12:55:00.000+01:00Ruby grows faster than APAX, so peeps shud use Rub...Ruby grows faster than APAX, so peeps shud use Ruby<BR/><BR/><BR/>Rby Rox!!!!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21122514.post-44764648546821481142009-03-10T10:09:00.000+01:002009-03-10T10:09:00.000+01:00Hi Dimitri,Nice post, with a familiar topic. I thi...Hi Dimitri,<BR/><BR/>Nice post, with a familiar topic. I think the growing interest in Apex is mainly pushed by (Oracle) developers and not by sales departments.<BR/>So, in many companies Apex is not bought by the CIO, but "someone" suggests to use Apex to offer the requested functionality. Usually, Oracle developers or architects come up with this brilliant idea ;-)<BR/><BR/>Personally I see that Apex is used next to Forms applications. If I need to build a new application I would ask myself: can I make it with Apex? If not (due to complex UI for example), I would still use Forms. In the near future I think the answer to the question "can I make it with Apex" would be more often YES.<BR/><BR/>So I think that it is a matter of time before the market start asking for Apex developers. And since Apex is quite easy to learn, you better get good at it :-0<BR/><BR/>Regards,<BR/>PeterPeter de Boerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17750262065531140736noreply@blogger.com